CAT MAZZA (www.microrevolt.org) interviewed by Beth Rosenberg
January 2005.

BETH ROSENBERG: Tell us about your new media background.
CAT MAZZA: Ok. I started getting interested in new media as an art student at Carnegie Mellon—they have an electronic media focus in their curriculum and it’s a huge technology school. At the time, the ratio of male to female at the school was three to one. I was also a gender studies minor, so I started thinking about the relationship between gender and technology, and used new media as a tool to talk about that. I probably got the strongest education in new media at Eyebeam. I started as an intern in ‘99 and went on to work there for about four years. I was doing a lot of technology stuff, web stuff, and I think I networked our first lab of iMacs when we were in the SoHo loft, and that’s where I started working with new media artists who were thinking and talking about new media as an emerging genre. So that’s kind of where it started.
BR: Tell us about what you’re doing now.
MAZZA: Well, right now I’m finishing my MFA at RPI, and I’m working on this project that falls under the title of microRevolt. It tries to integrate different disciplines. There’s a little bit of women’s labor history, there’s a knitting component, and there’s also an online component.
BR: So why did you start to combine technology with knitting?
MAZZA: It started at Eyebeam, and like I said, I was doing a lot of technology stuff there. I would get exhausted from the screen-based work and I had an hour-long commute home to Queens. So I asked my grandmother to teach me how to knit. It was something that kept me occupied on the subway ride. I think what I was interested in was developing something that was material, kind of hands on, and not screen based, just this relaxing thing. Then I learned from getting really interested in knitting that there were exciting overlaps between textiles and and the history of computers. So that made the first connection.
BR: There’s a real renaissance with knitting these days. You know, this very low craft, in terms of the hierarchy of art and the history of painting. Why do you think knitting is enjoying such a renaissance these days?
MAZZA: I think it’s a couple of different things. And I know that there’s more than one person who’s written about that. There’s articles about this resurgence of knitting post-9/11 and that there’s this return to craft. Everything we need now, in consumer culture, we buy off the shelf, so I think people have discovered something really satisfying about hand making their own something, or hand making a gift for somebody. Debbie Stoller, Editor of BUST magazine and author of Stitch 'N Bitch and Stitch 'N Bitch Nation had a lot to do with making it appealing to the younger generation. I think the way that worked is that she encouraged people to create sites online where people could go and figure out where they could meet as a knitting circle. This combination of meeting online and then in person was a way of sustaining this hobby.
BR: Do you think that Debbie was the forerunner of helping the new resurgence of knitting or was she responding to something? Or was it just her love and was she saying--Ok, let’s do these Stitch 'N Bitch coffee klatches?
MAZZA: She does write about this stuff in her books. She talks about how it was a concern, maybe, for her generation that it was anti-feminist to knit. So it was uncool for a while. I know that a lot of the women in my knitting circle, of my generation—I’m twenty-seven—learned from their grandparents. So it’s almost as if it skipped a generation; that our moms didn’t teach us. So I don’t know, she was definitely onto something. She herself always had knit as a young child. I think it was part of her upbringing.
BR: Let’s get back to this whole thing of it skipped a generation, because it’s interesting. I’m a generation older than you. I came from a very intense crafty family—you know, knitting sweaters and scarves and everything—and it really did skip my generation. Is it a twenty-something thing?
MAZZA: Well, I mean, you’ll always have hobbyists, right? I’m a member of a couple of different knitting groups. The Troy Fiber Arts group is actually forty-plus. But I don’t know if it’s a trend that is going to phase out, maybe, for some people. I have a feeling I’m going to be knitting for a long time. My grandmother who taught me has been knitting all her life. And it’s essentially the only thing that she has kept up, she is in her mid 80s now.
BR: So is it a way to feel useful?
MAZZA: Well there’s something satisfying about making something that’s handmade and making something stitch by stitch, into this artifact that you can wear that’s functional, you know?
BR: In the 1980s there was a resurgence of knitting in the art world; but when you think about it, it was really a lot of men that were knitting, like Oliver Herring and people like that. I mean, there were a couple of Whitney Biennials where the rage was that men were knitting. It was a really big deal. Do you remember that?
MAZZA: I witnessed something the opposite of that. At CMU in the mid-90s there was something exciting or cool about women doing electronics or building circuits, working with robotics and things like that. That was when I started reading about cyber-feminism. So I witnessed sort of the reverse gender binary, I guess.
BR: Can you talk about your interest in sweatshops and the historical part of your collective?
MAZZA: Sure. Well, I started working with an anti-sweatshop NGO when I was living in Maine.
BR: What is that, NGO?
MAZZA: It’s a non-governmental organization, a nonprofit.
BR: Ok.
MAZZA: They often do human rights or civil rights advocacy or whatever. So that got me excited about it. I was working with an anti-sweatshop organization called PICA, which is Peace through Inter-American Community Action. Living in Maine, I was very excited about women’s history in the northeast because that’s where the textile factories started in early industrial capitalism. This is where there was an uprising of women protesting overwork, long hours, unsanitary conditions, indecent pay; things that the anti-sweatshop movement is still struggling with in the global economy. The anti-sweatshop issue is something I try to focus on with the microRevolt projects. The idea is that knit hobbyists understand the labor process that goes into making garments, and therefore are a sympathetic group to mobilize on the sweatshop issue. The Stitch ‘N Bitch knitting circles I have visited in Cleveland, Chicago, LA and Albany are largely made up of members who are in an educated, consumer, professional class. I think this is an important group to have thinking about these things.
BR: Is part of your art-- education?
MAZZA: Do you mean formal education?
BR: Well, getting people to knit. Artists are usually working in their studios or on their computers; but here it seems like part of your thing is introducing people to knitting and knitting issues and even teaching them to knit.
MAZZA: Right. Yeah, I think you could say that knitting is a radical practice in a culture that is so compulsive about buying things. I also think that it’s a lost skill. It’s really hands on practice that requires a tacit knowledge. Few people can read a knitting book with step-by-step instructions and understand how to do it. There’s something really beautiful, I find, about teaching people. I find it really enjoyable and some people get into it and some people don’t, but it’s been a tool for me to talk about the sweatshop issue.
BR: I noticed on your website, you have interviewed various people active in sweatshop groups. How do you make contact with those people? Why are you interested in them? Can you talk a little bit more about that part of your project?
MAZZA: Sure. I’m trying to do artwork—that will raise consciousness about sweatshops—but at the same time, I am not an expert, I’m a knit hobbyist. So for me, it’s important to go to people who are working in legislative policy change or are working in new business models for paying workers a living wage. That’s been the major initiative behind interviewing different people. I’ve met them through the network of the anti-sweatshop movement. There’s a group called Sweat Free Communities that has local activist groups and local community organizations all connected.
BR: Part of microRevolt is that it’s a learning experience. I mean, it seems like it’s a big educational project, as well as— you know, learning how to knit and learning about sweatshops. It’s a little bit atypical of what you would usually think of for an artist to be doing.
MAZZA: Right. I should explain. The title microRevolt comes from this idea of molecular revolutions. It’s an abbreviation, and is loosely based on an idea by the French philosopher, Felix Guattari. He talks about how social change happens through small acts of resistance; not necessary by people soldiering behind some dogmatism or governing policy. Small, disorganized actions can overlap to create change. Maybe we can’t explain why knitting is this new cultural phenomenon; it’s just a little trend that happened. That’s sort of the idea of microRevolt, and that’s sort of how I see knitting, --it’s just this small act that you can do. It’s a small act of resistance against consumer culture. It also can be used as a way of talking about the sweatshop crisis that’s happening for people here in the United States and also overseas. I think it’s 90% women working in these horrible conditions, working on making the products that we consume. That’s where microRevolt comes from. It’s trying to encourage educational, participatory and creative small acts of resistance.
BR: To get that educational participatory art practice, were you looking at any particular artists? What or who are your influences?
MAZZA: As a student, I was a founding member of this collective called Carbon Defense League (CDL), which is now HACTIVIST.com. They went on to do some really clever, subversive, exciting projects using technology. I always wanted to do a more feminist version of CDL. I always felt like the token girl; microRevolt is trying to focus more on feminist issues. I’ve been really influenced by other collectives. In addition to hactivist there’s also the Institute for Applied Autonomy and I studied with Steve Kurtz from Critical Art Ensemble, and also Faith Wilding, who writes about cyberfeminism and is in the collective subRosa. Those art collectives inspired me to set up microRevolt. I also worked a bit with The Yes Men, who are amazing. Jonah Perretti, who did the Nike forward and is the Director of Research and Development at Eyebeam, was the first person I told about knitPro and logoknitting, and he was very supportive.
BR: Can you talk about the collective idea?
MAZZA: Well, the reason why microRevolt is a collective is because it has a social agenda. You know, it’s hard to take ownership of a project that requires people to participate. The best example is the Nike Blanket Petition that is a huge, fourteen-foot wide blanket of the Nike swoosh, and hundreds of people have participated in this by crocheting a four-by-four inch square that makes up the corporate logo. The idea is that each square is a petition for fair labor policies for Nike workers. I came up with the idea, but it’s been a real collective effort. You can either sign a square that’s been pre-made by somebody—by myself or somebody in my knitting circles—or you can hand make one. And it’s growing. The bigger it gets the more exciting it is, because it means there’s more petitions for the workers. The Nike Blanket project is probably the most participatory thing that I’ve done so far.
BR: Nike gets a bad rap. I mean, would you say that they’re one of the worst offenders? Can you talk a bit about why you looked at Nike in particular?
MAZZA: Let’s see. Nike in particular is not necessarily the worst offender; it’s definitely one of the wealthiest. A lot of times activists will attack the wealthiest corporations for sweatshop abuses, because they capitalize the most on the cheap labor.
BR: Ok.
MAZZA: Nike, the symbol of Nike, is one of the most ubiquitous in visual culture. Everyone knows the swoosh, whereas with the Gap, maybe less so.
BR: Michael Moore tries to take on Nike in some of his films, and offers Phil Knight a ticket to go visit his factories. And he says no. What makes you think that your blanket would really make any difference to Nike corporate heads?
MAZZA: I’m not sure that it would make any difference, actually. To me, it’s sort of working symbolically, and it’s also working as an educational tool. The more people participate the more they are learning and thinking about the relationship between this symbol—which has got a lot of brand power to the sweatshop crisis. People often associate Nike with sports celebrities. When we see the Nike swoosh, do we think of the famous athlete “just doing it” or the lifestyle and wage of the workers assembling the products? The Nike blanket is trying to help make the connection between the swoosh and the sweatshop, though I’m not sure the blanket will necessarily make or break any Nike policy.
BR: The goal is not necessarily that Phil Knight will change his ways, but that you can influence one or two people not to buy that Nike pair of sneakers or that Nike shirt?
MAZZA: Right. Again, it’s small acts of resistance. Then the more people that learn to knit from making the blanket, or crochet from making the blanket, the more of a collective spirit there is in thinking about these issues.
BR: What about the collective spirit? Are you trying to shape it?
MAZZA: Well, I mean, part of going under the umbrella of microRevolt is to keep it open and not try to develop some universal strategy. Every time I get a signature I get very excited; and I’ve been starting to receive them in the mail. There’s a knitting circle in Portugal that just participated, and in the last month many people from France were signing it. It’s taking on a life of its own.
BR: When will it be completed?
MAZZA: That’s a good question. I’m thinking this is an important year, in a way, for the anti-sweatshop movement, because…
BR: You mean 2005.
MAZZA: Yes. The World Trade Organization lifted one of its policies called the Multi-Fiber Agreement. It used to be that there was a quota, where every developing country that was producing, say T-shirt exports could only produce so many. Now since that’s lifted, there are concerns that it’s going to be this race to the bottom for cheap labor. Countries like China that are willing to develop lots and lots more exports at cheaper costs because of the population could put out smaller countries of apparel workers, like Bangladesh. So, this is an important year to talk about this issue, and hopefully the blanket can inspire dialog and it can be talked about. The bigger it gets, the more support the movement has. So, I don’t have any deadline but will consider giving it to Nike headquarters at the end of the year as a holiday gift…
BR: Where can I read more about the Multi-Fiber Agreement
MAZZA: There should be a link on my site. You could go to the World Trade Organization site and they’ll talk about it, just from a different angle.
BR: When you’re shopping or you’re buying clothes or buying a gift or whatever for someone, will you not shop at the Gap?
MAZZA: Yeah, well, now I feel like I can’t.
BR: So there are definitely big corporations that you will not shop at.
MAZZA: The reality is we have to live with the fact that this is how everything you consume is produced. There’s no company that exists that isn’t using cheap labor. Or there’s very few, right? So it’s almost impossible to live in our culture and buy sweat-free. I understand that that those are the conditions, but there are a few alternatives. So I try to do that as much as possible. I also try to make as much as possible.
BR: Right. I was recently at Old Navy owned by the Gap, of course. I needed to get a winter coat for my daughter, and it was after December 26th, so everything was on sale; but I managed to get this great down winter coat for twenty dollars. Then while I was there, I picked another one up for my son, even though he already had a winter coat. I said to myself-- Oh, this is better, it’s warmer and it’s longer. I was telling this to one of my friends, and we both agreed there’s something wrong with the system if you can literally buy this down winter coat for twenty dollars in the middle of the winter. It kind of just felt creepy.
MAZZA: Yeah.
BR: Do you think that the people that actually made that coat earned absolutely next to nothing?
MAZZA: You know, it’s safe to assume that any competitive, huge company like Old Navy is making money off of people who get paid next to nothing.
BR: Hence the price that they could sell it to me as the consumer can also be next to nothing.
MAZZA: Yeah, it’s intense.
BR: It was really weird. It definitely felt like something was wrong with the system.
MAZZA: Right. Well, what’s kind of amazing about that is certain companies will pay a decent amount for materials, and still win on the cheap labor. Nike shoes have to have enough quality for people to compete with them. They support college teams and the NFL and things like this. They have to have the quality to support an athlete.
BR: Right.
MAZZA: A lot of times, it’s not the materials that are necessarily compromised. For example, the coat that you bought for your kid might be a really nice down coat. The way that they’re able to do that is to spend on the materials and save on the cheap labor.
BR: Ok. So tell us a little bit more. You have the Nike project, and if someone wanted to contribute to that, they could either send you a square or they could sign a square online.
MAZZA: Exactly. You can read more about it at microRevolt.org.